Way…Way Out Of Touch
The other member of my household, you all know who I mean, has been telling me I am not as cool as I think I am for about a year now. He insists I don’t know what’s "in" and, strangely, that he somehow does. Yeah, right. I thought he was nuts until I stumbled across the idea of slash writing. Five little words jumped into my muddled brain - What The Hell Is This?
After checking around, I ended up on a site called, appropriately enough, Sacrilege. According to Mr. or Mrs. Sacrilege, slash writing is:
Well, the short definition is "fanfiction written about romantic or sexual relationships occurring between two same-gender characters, usually male. The characters used in the fiction are denoted by X/Y, where X and Y are the characters’ initials or names.
Again, what the hell is this? Or, are you kidding me? Either question works.
I did more digging and figured out that the above "writing" tends to be based on existing television show characters where the male actors are not gay on the show but where the slash writing puts them in homoerotic relationships. Yes, this appears to be a violation of, well, everything. Using other people’s characters? That certainly doesn’t seem right to me. Putting these well known characters in situations that, at best, can be described as out of context? Well, that’s just wrong in my book. Make up your own characters and do whatever you want to them. Right? Apparently not. The website goes on to say:
Yes, the writers of slash tales are mostly women. I think it’s partly because straight females find gay males sexy, just like straight males are turned on by lesbians. But it may be more complex than that, too, because I find that women writers tend to like working out emotional and power issues in the relationship of two men that does not happen with a man and a woman. It’s not just the sex that’s important to us as the stories.
For the record, I’m not turned on by the idea or visual image of gay males having sex. Do whatever you want in your personal life but this is not my thing. But, and I can only take Mr. or Mrs. Sacrilege at his/her word, I guess it’s good to know sex isn’t the only thing in these stories. ‘Tho I’m guessing it’s a big part and that Mr. or Mrs. Sacrilege is downplaying that angle a bit.
When talking about slash writing regarding Sherlock Holmes and Watson - yes, it appears nothing is sacred - this advice is given:
How shall Holmes and Watson mesh a slash relationship with their own Victorian beliefs, deal with Victorian laws against homosexual relations, or prevent themselves from being caught by Scotland Yard? This would be an optional thing to address, depending on the purpose and nature of the slash tale in question.
Hubby wins. I’m out of touch. Thank. The. Lord.
If for some reason you want to check this out - and don’t say I didn’t warn you in advance - here is the website. Oh, and there are 1000s more like it. Have fun.
April 11th, 2005 at 11:47 am
You’re pretty cool for tackling this one. I actually like reading women authors who write bi or gay male characters. I think it’s gusty and the element of the unknown is very compelling for me. Well written scenes between men are very easy for me to fall into because I can’t impose my likes or dislikes on the characters; or my physical boundaries. In sex scene between men and women there is always an opportunity for me to think, “Um, that would hurt,” or “I can’t bend like that.”
But, using characters someone else created? No. A thousand times no. Aside from copyright infringement, I’ve never read slash or fan fiction that captured the essence, tone or voice of the character being co-opted.
April 11th, 2005 at 11:52 am
I have a friend who writes EXCELLENT X-files slash! LOL! Who’d've thunk it, but yes, it’s true!!
April 11th, 2005 at 11:55 am
I’ll agree it’s gutsy but it doesn’t do anything for my “emotional and power issues” as the site suggest. I’m not prissy or a prude by any means, but male-on-male stuff alone doesn’t do it for me. That being said, if someone writes ORIGINAL work with this subject matter and does it well, good for them. I’m not the audience but there is one. But, writing stories using someone else’s ideas and characters? No way. This is never okay. Do your own work. And the Sherlock Holmes/Watson thing is just wrong.
April 11th, 2005 at 12:03 pm
Alison - I’m not surprised someone can do it well but isn’t it a bit unnerving that someone is doing it at all and then putting it out on the internet? I’m thinking I’d be ticked off if someone co-opted my characters then really changed the tone and sexual nature of my work. Maybe I’m overthinking this but it seems to go beyond fan worship.
April 11th, 2005 at 12:32 pm
HelenKay, fanfiction is huge. Livejournal has quite a community there. Apparently Harry Potter/Draco is big, for example, and I think, though don’t quote me, that JK Rowling doesn’t have a problem with fanfiction.
For an interesting take on facfic by Tor editor Anna Genoese go to http://www.livejournal.com/users/alg/42326.html if you’re interested. (Why doesn’t Typepad have html?) She explains how reading fanfic probably leads her to spend more money on dvds and the original books.
I don’t read it myself, but I understand the impulse because I daydream fanfic from time to time. Usually nothing so interesting as slash. I tend to want to rescue doomed characters. That said, I like slashy original fiction like Ellen Kushner’s Swordspoint.
April 11th, 2005 at 12:59 pm
Heh heh, I think I’ve made a sideways swipe at Harry Potter slash fiction on Smart Bitches. That shit is out there. I’ve heard ugly rumors that there’s Pokemon slash fiction. I’ve read Monkees slash fiction. Talk about wrong! But incredibly hilarious. I’m not really into fanfiction, either reading it or writing it, but I have, like Jorie, daydreamed fanfiction for secondary characters I really, really like who never got their own HEA in a book. It started when I was a kid, when I tried to think of an HEA for Mowgli, then Jan from Ian Seraillier’s The Silver Sword (which, contrary to what its name implies, is not a fantasy novel, but a YA book set in WWII Poland that tracks a family’s concentration camp experiences).
I think fanfiction basically stems from a potent combination of love and frustration: love for the characters, and frustration at either where the canon is taking them, or how certain characters’ stories are left untold. Slash fiction stems from that too, but with a lot of other components that are harder to tease out. (Huh huh, “tease.”) The sex is definitely a major component, and I think there’s also the thrill of breaking taboos, and there’s also the convenience of having the characters already described. I mean, we ALL know what Mulder and Skinner look like, so when the two of them get down, we can picture it pretty damn vividly.
I like reading about two hot guys gettin’ it on, but since I don’t find most movie or TV personalities all that hot, a lot of slash leaves me cold. Plus a lot of the stories are just so badly written. If Laura Kinsale cared to tackle slash fiction between the Johnny Depp and Orlando Bloom characters in Pirates of the Caribbean, I would definitely reconsider my stance on reading slashfic, heh heh heh.
Personally, I’m not at all bothered by the whole copyright infringement/breaking the cannon thing. If the slash fiction writer was making money off the whole deal, then yeah, BOO. For most of these people, though, it’s a labor of love.
So HelenKay: have you heard of furries? *evil grin*
April 11th, 2005 at 1:07 pm
So HelenKay: have you heard of furries? *evil grin*
rofl, Candy!
April 11th, 2005 at 1:11 pm
The copyright infringement bothers me and bothers me, and then it bothers me some more. Fictional characters are intellectual property. Property. That’s why books are copy righted. Those ideas–those characters–belong to the author.
April 11th, 2005 at 2:05 pm
Everything I know about furries comes from a CSI episode and that was more than enough for me. I felt almost puritancial after watching that episode. Pokeman? The Monkees? No, sorry, to me that’s screwed up. Really, people can get their thrills however they want but, damn, some of this stuff strikes me as strange.
I understand fanfiction is huge and people want to hang onto these characters and create new stories, etc., but they are not their characters. And, the slash fiction thing? I have to admit I don’t get it. So, I see Harry Potter and Ron in Chamber of Secrets, think it’s good and see it 100 more times since it’s on HBO every Sunday. Then I spin a fantasy in my mind where they have sex? I was fine right up to the last part. My mind says, “whoa” what happened?
Again, if people want to write original man-on-man stuff, that’s fine. It just doesn’t light my fire. Throw a woman (or 2 or 5) in there with them and I’m fine, but guy/guy isn’t for me. Maybe it’s because I always think a female should be in there having some fun - who knows. I like stuff other people don’t like, so that’s cool. But, I still come back to the idea of using someone else’s property, the characters and backdrop someone else created, and say no. I agree with Wendy on that part.
April 11th, 2005 at 3:50 pm
The whole intellectual property thing brings up interesting issues with authors who write sequels long after the original author is dead. The V.C. Andrews franchise is still alive and kicking, and apparently the ghostwriter is using character outlines prepared by Andrews before she croaked. And whatsherface who wrote the sequel to Gone With the Wind–god that book was SO BAD I’ve actually blocked the title from my mind. And someone else published a sequel to Pride and Prejudice, where we get to see Mr. Darcy and Elizabeth getting their thang on. Several years ago Roderick Lanscombe wrote a fascinating first-person re-working of Dracula called The Secret Life of Laszlo, Count Dracula. Tad Williams wrote a novel from Caliban’s perspective called Caliban’s Hour. Neil Gaiman re-wrote the Snow White story in a truly gruesome and unexpected way, and let’s not forget the million and one versions we have of King Arthur and Robin Hood. The original creators of these characters were unable to give permission to the current authors because they were dead or unknown; the author’s estate sometimes had a hand in approving these sequels, but I’m guessing that some of these works (like Shakespeare and Austen and definitely the fairy tales) are old enough that they are public domain. Do all these instances bother either of you, whether or not copyright was technically infringed? Does it bother you as much as slash fiction/fanfiction in general? Is slashfic between Arthur and Lancelot OK? What about fanfic tracing what happened to Lancelot after Arthur’s death?
These questions are not snarky in any way, by the way–I’m genuinely curious to see what you think, especially given your extremely strong reactions to the idea of fanfic and slashfic.
April 11th, 2005 at 5:18 pm
Hey Candy–in the case of GONE WITH THE WIND and V.C. Andrews the estates of those authors commissioned and licensed the use of the characters/franchise. And you’re right the GWTW sequel is entirely forgettable. The man who ghost writes the V.C. Andrews series actually lives down the street from me, next time I see him, I’ll ask if in fact he’s writing his own ideas or not.
In the case of Shakespeare and Snow White, well the copy rights–if there ever were any–have long since lapsed. No one owns them and that makes them fair game.
But, characters from television, movies, and fiction are copy righted, and those copy rights are current. The characters are owned by their creators. The characters are not public domain. And the use of them, without the consent of their creators is illegal. It devalues the work of the creator.
April 11th, 2005 at 5:19 pm
Gee, Candy, no fair making me think…. my understanding is that the V.C. Andrews stuff was approved by the estate. The estate has copyright coverage and an active literary agent (and probably a squadron of lawyers) watching over and protecting the integrity of the V.C. Andrews name and product.
My memory with the Gone With The Wind sequel (I agree, btw, it was garbage) was that there was litigation and the court’s said the material had been in the public domain long enough and had taken on public stature so that the sequel could go forward. But, there was a lot of squabbling and only the passage of time allowed for the sequel. Fairy tales and older works would come under the public domain exception as well.
Writing about Harry Potter and current tv characters, and books that have not been in the public domain for the requisite period of time, and therefore still have legal protection, is different for me. I do think it’s an infringement because these are ongoing concerns over which the authors have a protected and viable interest. Jorie may be right that Rowling and others don’t mind because they see it as some type of marketing thing, but the general rule should be “no” without the author giving the okay.
All legalese aside, for me the test is that the authors created the characters, the world, the plot. No one should be able to then take that creative work and use it for his or her own purposes, even if it’s to “praise” the work through fan-oriented sites.
Does slash fiction bother me? I guess it does because not only are you taking over set characters and work, you are twisting it (and I’m not saying that in a judgmental way - it’s the only word that’s jumping into my brain at the moment) in a way that was never intended and then putting your own version out in the public for viewing under your own name. And, I guess, this could concievably offend the original author, the author’s other fans, the author’s reputation. Maybe my view has something to do with the fact I’m a lawyer (yeah, I know, I’m sorry) and that in legal terms this strikes me as an absolute no no.
April 11th, 2005 at 5:21 pm
See, I could have waited two more seconds then just said “yeah, what she said” to Wendy’s post.
April 11th, 2005 at 6:23 pm
OK, so just to get it straight: works for which copyright has elapsed are fair game, but works which are currently copyrighted aren’t?
Is Sherlock Holmes public domain? It’s old enough that I would think it is.
As a reader and somebody who is pretty much purely a reader, with no ambitions to ever write fiction, and furthermore as somebody who doesn’t have any kind of a law background, my only criterion is the story. Is it written well? Does it engage my imagination, my mind and my emotions? If it’s based on past works, does it maintain the same feel? If it doesn’t, is there a compelling reason as to why it’s not?
We need to bring Meljean Brook into this conversation, because she writes fanfic featuring DC comics characters. It’ll be interesting to have a perspective from an actual fanfic writer….
April 11th, 2005 at 6:39 pm
Uh. *scared look*
Sigh. This is going to be a long post. I’ll have it up on my site in a few minutes (hours).
April 11th, 2005 at 8:15 pm
For the record, let’s just clarify right now that despite the fact that I think I’m cooler than my wife, I find the Harry-sleeps-with-Drago-and-Hermoine-in-a-threesome thing sick in ways that I cannot even begin to describe.
My feelings aside…
As a lawyer by training (and one who dabbles in intellectual property), I am certain that it is entirely UNlawful for third parties to co-opt copyrighted characters and place them in other contexts, regardless of how — imaginative — that setting might be. The people who are doing this (and I have nothing against them personally) are also inviting copyright infringement lawsuits brought by either the authors themselves or the actual holders of the copyright if those authors are deceased. I don’t imagine that to be a result these fan wrtiers intended.
If the originators of these characters actually do permit others to borrow them and place them out of context, fine. But, a prudent fan writer would get their consent first. The irony is that love of an author’s work actually prompts some people to hijack the that work in ways that the author might find unflattering.
For the record, books that were published in the United States after 1 March 1989 retain copyright protection for seventy years after the death of the author.
April 11th, 2005 at 8:20 pm
Uh-oh…. it can’t be a good thing that Meljean is doing a special blog to reply.
In the interest of full disclosure - I am a divorce lawyer. Hubby is a contracts lawyer who has to deal with copyright and intellectual property questions all the time. I know some. He knows a lot more. Frankly, he was horrified that the fanfic writings exist. Grumbled something about authors needing to sue. And if there exists a word to describe something worse than horrified, that’s what he was at the idea of slash writing. Got all kinds of comments about guy/guy stories. What you would expect. Assured him no one was going to make him have sex with another man and he calmed down a bit. Not much, mind you, but a bit.
There are a bunch of legal issues such as “public domain” (this is whether or not something has been out there for a set number of years - by now, it’s something like since 1930 but there is a move to make the number of years 100) Another is “fair use” which is the idea of whether or not you can use an original work not in the public domain for a limited purpose without the author’s permission. There are about 10,000 books written a year trying to ferret this one out. The bottom line: there are rules and there is no First Amendment right to take other people’s copyrighted material. That is not free speech.
All that being said….for once in my life I take a very black line position - this is me, not anyone else -which says: don’t use other people’s ideas and creations unless the books, etc., are in the public domain. Even then, I might not be okay. That issue I haven’t worked out in my head.
I told hubby he could come on and explain the legal perspective so long as he was nice and did not make guy/guy sex jokes. His response is above and, yes, it will take me hours to get him to calm down about the Harry Potter slash writings.
April 11th, 2005 at 8:34 pm
I guess I shouldn’t tell you that there is real person slash, too, then? I remember on Neil Gaiman’s blog someone pointed it out to him and he didn’t really want to go there.
Authors seem to have three positions about fanfic using their work. It’s fine. It’s fine but I don’t want to read it. It’s wrong and it should stop. And there are all sorts of variations: Due South (that Canadian mountie show) with werewolves and MASH/Star Trek crossovers are two I vaguely remember.
Anyway, I don’t read or write it. I’ve found some of discussions about craft by the fanfic community fascinating. I haven’t heard of anyone being sued. There are a number of authors who came out of the fanfic community and/or read it a lot. There are a number of authors who don’t like it at all. It can become a fairly contentious issue.
April 11th, 2005 at 8:43 pm
I can absolutely see how writing fanfic breaks the law. But for franchises with the biggest fanfic base (Star Trek, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, various comic book series, sundry SF/F works), authors and creators filing copyright suits would seriously alienate a huge part of their fanbase. And we’re talking a really, really lucrative fanbase, because you KNOW fanfic writers and readers also tend to buy every DVD set, every issue with every different holographic collector’s cover and very likely go into figurine collection as well. Suing for copyright infringement: Smart legal move? Maybe. Smart marketing move? Depending on the work at question: results could range from negligible to completely disastrous.
And as I said above: if fanfic/slashfic writers were somehow making money from what they do, then yeah, I’d be a lot more sympathetic to suing the bejesus out of them. For a lot of people, fanfic and slashfic doesn’t just cost them time and effort, for many of them it costs them money too. Bandwidth ain’t free.
And I agree that Harry Potter and Pokemon slashfic gives me major, major jibblies, because these characters are CHILDREN. This starts moving into pedophilia-land, and I am NOT comfortable with that. Man on man action? Bring it on. Group sex involving adults in every conceivable configuration? No problem. Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson tapping swizzle sticks? Doesn’t make my motor run, but it doesn’t gross me out either. Kids having sex, though, even fictional kids? AAARGH.
Wait, hang on, something just occured to me: if fanfic is such a sticky wicket because of copyright issues, what do y’all think of the occasional covers with alternative titles that I make for Covers Gone Wild? What about what Longmire’s romance novel cover page? Does that fall under fair use? (But from the very, very little I understand about fair use, it’s a defense for a copyright infringement suit, not a right.)
April 11th, 2005 at 8:53 pm
I put my response up — I think I come off more defensive and more incoherent than I mean to be.
I wish I could explain it all better than I did. I know there is no defense on the copyright issues–nor should there be. Characters and ideas do need to be protected. Too many treat it as an issue of money rather than infringing on mental property (”I don’t make money so it isn’t wrong!”), but that’s not really the problem at all.
And yet I participate in a community that violates that copyright every day. I can justify and rationalize as much as I want; it doesn’t make it right.
But at the same time, I’m glad I did it. I wouldn’t have not done it for anything.
April 11th, 2005 at 8:55 pm
OK, I finally figured out how to summarize my position in three Q&A segments:
Is fanfic/slashfic illegal? For works not in the public domain, undoubtedly; of works in the public domain, that would depend on other things, I suppose, like trademarks and what-have-you.
Is fanfic/slashfic involving adults wrong, as in ethically, morally wrong? Personally, I don’t think so.
Is slashfic involving children wrong? YES. I realize it’s fiction, not real life, but I do find kiddie slashfic morally repugnant.
There, don’t you wish I’d just posted that instead of running off at the mouth above? Damn.
April 11th, 2005 at 9:11 pm
“Uh-oh…. it can’t be a good thing that Meljean is doing a special blog to reply.”
Nah…I just didn’t want to fill up your comments section with a HUGE post. Plus, I wasn’t sure how to link stuff
April 11th, 2005 at 9:45 pm
I’d never heard of fanfic until I started posting on two different Buffy the Vampire Slayer boards. And I was amazed to discover that fanfic is so huge — there really are fics covering almost every conceivable TV show, movie, books, whatever.
It’s copyright infringement, definitely. But…I kind of stand behind the “we’re not making money off this” stance. They write the stories, they post the stories, no one pays for them, and if anything it makes the original show, book, movie that much more popular. (Or makes the original authors of said work more popular. In the case of BtVS, for instance, the show is gone, but the fan base is following the group of writers, now scattered to the four corners of your TV screen, at least to one or two episodes of every new show they’re writing for.)
As far as I can tell, although the original authors may feel differently, it’s a testament to how deeply these characters have affected their readers/viewers. Those authors may be appalled that Hawkeye and Spock are getting their groove on in cyberspace, but for the fanfic writers it’s a way to make these characters keep living. To exist beyond the limited bounds of the books/movies/shows produced. To use them as a platform for working out personal issues/demons by putting the characters into situations they’d like to have seen/read.
I’ve written very little, and I’ve never posted most of it, but I get fanfic in a very real way. The only universe I’ve ever written (or want to write) is Buffy and Angel, and I know for me it’s because those characters came alive for me in ways other characters haven’t. Once in a while, it’s a blast to take someone I already “know” and put him/her in a new situation, especially after struggling with my original characters all day.
And slash… Well, let’s just say I don’t *not* get it.
April 11th, 2005 at 10:10 pm
I gotta say, whether or not you get paid shouldn’t be the test. Under that theory, someone who likes Alison’s SG-5 series (me, for instance) could make up stories having her gents having sex with each other, etc., and post those stories on my weblog, insisting it’s just fanfic. I’m betting everyone would be appalled and I’d get really nasty emails. Alison would be pissed. I’d never get published with Brava. You get the idea… It shouldn’t be okay just because these folks are using tv characters rather than Alison’s recently published works.
Is the stuff protected by copyright? Yes. Is sex between kidsokay as part of slash writing? No. That’s never okay. Let’s use some sense. Do I think this is wrong and absolutely not okay? Absolutely. Am I berating Mejean or anyone else who writes this stuff or reads it? I don’t mean to but we should think about this and what it would mean if we were “borrowing” from one of your favorite authors instead of a screenwriter you don’t know. There really isn’t a difference that I can see.
Now, Candy, to your cover question? Legal hubby says it’s an infringement. His point: when BOMC wants to publish a book as part of its program, they need to pay for that right, for the right to use the material, including the cover. He also points out that cover art is copyrighted. I do have to say, the cover changes don’t bother me at all. I actually like them. Since this is his specialty area, he gets a bit hyper about it. Not as hyper as the idea of the kids of Harry Potter having funky sex, which he’s still pissing around about, but still hyper.
Amy - I think everyone thinks Buffy and Angel are open to fanfic. I have to wonder what Whedon thinks. Maybe he’s okay with it. Don’t know.
Jorie - when you say “real people slash” does that mean people making up stories not based on someone else’s characters? that’s okay with me. Again, guy/guy sex wihtout a woman stuck in there doesn’t do anything for me but other people like it. Maybe you’re talking about something else…..I’ll wait and see before causing a riot of some type.
April 11th, 2005 at 10:24 pm
“Real people slash” creeps me out — it’s actually taking two real people (Britney Spears and Demi Moore, for example) and writing a story where they get it on. A lot of people portray it as “behind the scenes” type stories…David Boreanaz and James Marsters having sex on the set of Angel, for example.
April 11th, 2005 at 10:34 pm
I should add that most archives won’t allow that type of fanfic though — fanfiction.net used to, but then began prohibiting it. It’s generally viewed as the lowest of the low in fanfic — just above the kiddie porn level.
April 11th, 2005 at 10:41 pm
Yeah, that’s it. I’ve just heard of it, haven’t read it. Since I don’t read fanfic or this version of it.
Btw, there is, I believe, lots of Harry Potter fanfiction that isn’t slash, in case I gave the impression that that was the only kind. (Anyway, that should really end my contribution on this topic because I actually know very little about fanfic.)
April 11th, 2005 at 10:43 pm
Thanks for the explanation, Meljean. And, yes, I’m definitely against that. Maybe it’s original in some sense but, really, that’s a bit much.
April 11th, 2005 at 11:50 pm
Actually, HK, I know of several HQ authors who’ve had to get the HQ legal department onto fanfic sites that have written the further adventures of their characters! Julie Leto is one!
But let me think about my guys in slash . . . hmmm . . . *gggg*
April 12th, 2005 at 12:31 am
I would assume that Candy’s covers would not be considered infringement because the are actually PARODY which is covered by free speech, as the courts have ruled multiple times.
And despite the fact that it is technically illegal, most authors and writers really don’t care about fanfic. You guys sound really uptight about this. I’m not trying to be offensive, but don’t you ever speed? If you aren’t feeling intense guilt over that, why should a fanfic writer (which the creator of the original characters has admitted they don’t object) feel guilty/bad/whatever over writing about characters they clearly love?
April 12th, 2005 at 1:42 am
Well, regardless of the legality of the covers I Photoshop, I’m going to keep on doing it. Why? ‘Cause it makes me laugh and it’s fun, heh heh. Yes, my moral compass is that skewed, mwahahaha.
As I said on Meljean’s site, I tend to view fanfic writing as something on the same scale as swiping the occasional office envelope for personal use. Yes, it’s stealing, but eh, there are much worse things one can do. I’m a believer in the difference of degrees. Stealing on the scale of Enron–now THAT’s something to get upset about, that’s Wrong-with-a-capital-W. And really, my analogy isn’t that good because enough people occasionally swiping an office envelope could conceivably impact the company’s budget in a negative way, while near as I can tell fanfic feeds the franchise and keeps it fresh instead of vice versa. But on the other hand, making money does not in any way palliate any moral wrongness attached to an action. Then on the other other hand, I don’t see it as particularly morally wrong. I do think if an author doesn’t want the fanfic to be made public that one should respect her wishes, but I don’t see how one can truly stop people from writing fanfic in private–trying to enforce that would smack a bit too close to thought-policing for my comfort.
Here’s another situation for us to ponder: What’s your stance on kids writing fanfic? Let’s say your kid (if you have one) is in fourth grade, has just discovered Harry Potter and has started writing the further adventures of Potter & Co., and doing so has improved her writing skills. She’s gotten so good that she’s sharing the stories with her group of friends in school, and they’re enjoying the stories immensely too. Would you say “No, what you’re doing is as bad as stealing, so if you want to make up stories, make up your own characters”? If the kid still keeps doing it, what kind of punishment would you enforce on the child?And let’s say the kid tries making up her stories, but they just don’t inspire her the same way the existing Potter universe does so she stops writing creatively, and the progress on her writing skills slows down accordingly. Would your stance remain the same?
I ask all these questions because I truly want to know if those of you who view fanfic as wrong, view it as wrong all the time for all people, or if there are acceptable instances and types of fanfic.
And as for writing fanfic/slashfic for authors I’m acquainted with: should I decide to delve into those waters, and depending on the author, I’d probably share with her, heh. Alison sounds like she might get a kick out of it, but I’d definitely keep any fanfic based on yours or Wendy’s work tightly under wraps and for personal enjoyment only
.
April 12th, 2005 at 8:01 am
Fanfiction is a violation of copyright, but as some people have pointed out above, it really feeds the enthusiasm of fans, and probably increases sales of legitimate books rather than decreases them. That’s not to say it’s right, but I think most publishers and studios just look the other way.
I don’t happen to be interested in slash, but I don’t care if other people like to read and write it. But I do have serious issues with slash fiction written about children’s stories. It can actively damage an author’s reputation when people who don’t know any better confuse the slash with the original product. And a bigger concern is that I’d hate for a kid who loves Harry Potter to innocently Google HP and come across this kind of stuff. Yes, parents should be watching, but all too often they’re not. Besides, as someone else mentioned, slash fiction about Harry and Draco is essentially pedophilia, which gives me the heebie-jeebies. Bleah. Write all the Picard/Data/Geordi slash you want, but please, leave Harry Potter out of it.
April 12th, 2005 at 8:37 am
Beverly - Actually, the parody question isn’t as clear cut as you might think. There have been conflicting rulings in courts balancing First Amendment rights and the copyright protections of the publishing houses and cover artist. That being said, I don’t have a problem with the covers. To me that one is not a bright line and I think parody should be fine. It is a no-no for the hubby but this is what he does for a living and he’s a black and white guy in general.
I’ve never really been a you-speed-so-it’s-ok-to-violate-other-laws type of person. I think the bottom line here is that we know it’s copyright infringement. For me, that means don’t do it. If you write it, read it, enjoy it, that’s fine for you. I will respectfully disagree with you and we can agree to disagree.
Believe it or not, I was not trying to be controversial with this post. I really had no idea how rabid some of the responses would be - not you guys but you should see some of my emails. YESH! Honestly, today’s post may just be my grocery list.
Kids writing fanfic and passing it around? Isn’t that different? Writing in my notebook and keeping it for myself or sending a paragraph to Wendy to review (she’d yell at me for doing that, btw) - seems to me that’s not the same thing at all. I think kids or adults can write whatever they want for their personal enjoyment (except for adults writing about kids having sex - no!). I’m all for creativity. But, then setting up a site and putting out in public and interfering with the author’s copyright, then no. Really, we should do whatever we can to promote kids’ creativity and writing but maybe the goal should be to transfer that excitement for existing fiction to some original fiction of their own.
And, Ellen, I couldn’t agree with you more on leaving Harry Potter alone.
April 12th, 2005 at 6:27 pm
HelenKay, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. Let me try to rephrase. I am not saying that because a person speeds, breaking other laws is okay, but rather that obviously the speeding issue is not a black-and-white issue for most people, and neither is the issue of fanfic, but you are (apparently) looking at it from a black-and-white position, which might not be the best way to look at it (or most anything for that matter).
April 12th, 2005 at 9:34 pm
Yeah, when it comes to fanfic I’m pretty black and white. In general I tend not to draw bright lines but on this issue I do. Others don’t. I get that. It’s an interesting debate and one I didn’t expect. That will teach me.
Tomorrow, I blog about my grocery list…..
April 13th, 2005 at 6:08 pm
HelenKay wrote: *Really, we should do whatever we can to promote kids’ creativity and writing but maybe the goal should be to transfer that excitement for existing fiction to some original fiction of their own.*
Speaking as a long-time fanfiction writer (and I started writing fics as a young teenager), I can assure you right now that any attempt by an outside force to ‘transfer’ that love of fanfiction writing to something else will fail. You might as well try to ‘transfer’ Stephen King’s love of writing horror fiction into a love of writing romantic comedy that has fluffy happy people and no evil spirits and horrors from beyond the grave.
Ain’t gonna happen, no way, no how.
Fanfiction writing and fanfiction critiquing is something in me that can’t be shaken out, destroyed, or ‘transferred’ to writing orginal fiction. I don’t want to write orginal fiction at this point in my life; I feel like writing fanfiction. That’s just the way it is.
HelenKay wrote: *Putting these well known characters in situations that, at best, can be described as out of context? Well, that’s just wrong in my book.*
As it is in mine. We in the fanfiction world call this problem ‘OOC’ (meaning Out Of Character). Fanfiction that has too many characters being OOC is called ‘badfic’. And there are several places on the ‘Net where badfics are thrashed to pieces with much sarcasm and wit. While we can’t actively remove the badfic unless it violates the uploading rules of, say, Fanfiction.Net, we can point out its flaws of spelling, grammar, characterization, and mechanics whilst having a damn good time of it, too.
A place such as GodAwfulFanFiction is the spot to go to for this sort of brutal criticism. I’m a member there, myself.
Just my two cents, anyway.
~TheScornfulRoman.
April 13th, 2005 at 8:29 pm
CAndy said “Well, regardless of the legality of the covers I Photoshop, I’m going to keep on doing it. Why? ‘Cause it makes me laugh and it’s fun, heh heh. Yes, my moral compass is that skewed, mwahahaha.”
And that, my friends, is what fans do. They do it with Photoshop and they do it with words. And they’re going to keep on doing it regardless of its legality because it’s fun.
And it doesn’t actually hurt anyone, either. Unless, you know, it’s hideously poorly written.
April 13th, 2005 at 9:26 pm
Fandom Wank folks - My hissyfit-free response is the same today as it was two days ago… I can’t get behind fanfic writing. I’m all for creativity but write your own stuff. In my book, you are taking someone else’s creative product, co-opting it and then doing whatever you want with it despite the fact you do not have the author’s permission to do so. Whether or not you think you’re hurting someone is irrelevant. Whether or not you’re making money is also irrelevant. This is just not okay in my book. Clearly, it’s fine in yours. I get that. I respect Meljean’s views but absolutely do not agree with them. She knows that and seems just fine with my position even though it doesn’t match hers.
See? No name calling, nastiness or bashing. And, for the record, you’ll notice I didn’t say I stumbled onto slash writing this week. Just said I came late to the game. I may be a bit out of touch but am not dumb or dead. I’ve got the smile concept down too, but thanks for asking.
April 13th, 2005 at 10:48 pm
I just want to take this time to point out most slash (and het, for that matter) fic written in the HP universe is not, in fact, kiddie porn. Normally, in say a Draco/Harry fic, the characters will be in thier fith, sixth or seventh year, if not older. And while they characters are still legally underage at 16 or 17 (at least in the US0, two 17 year old getting it one does not equal pedophilic fantasy porn.
I just wanted to point that out.
April 13th, 2005 at 11:22 pm
Ugh, I just read through all the comments after I wrote this up. So I guess the main problem for you is that it’s copyrighted and therefore illegal. And I have no clue if my post really addresses that anymore.
So…if there was no copyright, it would be ok? But since it is copyrighted it’s wrong.
(rest of this written before I read all the comments and your replies)
One thing I want to be clear on–You just have a problem with fanfiction in general right? Because of the whole copyright issue. Your problem with fanfiction doesn’t just stem from slash. If so, I’m not gonna gripe about the slash part.
As for fanfiction…Well, that has been going on since medieval literature. If you take a look at works such as King Horn, Gawain and the Green Knight, and Beowolf you can find conflicting things in the story that probably indicate that the author had known of one version and decided he didn’t like that particular version and changed it. If something like that happened in fanfiction today that would be considered bad fic and a breach of canon.
I think it’s part of human nature to want to change certain things in a story. I mean, I think everyone who reads books finds themselves at certain points wanting to change things in the books…whether it’s a romance, or a stupid action, whatever. Or they get interested in an aspect of the world and they want to explore it more. Surely that’s not illegal. If they just discussed it with their friends, what they want characters to do…that’s not illegal. So the moment they write what they think down, that’s illegal? Suppose they wrote it in essay form, is that illegal? Not if they credit the authors. So just why is fanfiction illegal?
I know there’s a really fine line somewhere in there. If someone just copied the story, yes, that would be plagiarism. But I don’t see how imagining the characters in certain situations and writing it down is illegal.
Of course, a decent amount of people disagree with that so I guess it’s just a matter of opinion. If the author doesn’t want fanfiction, then I think most people will respect that. Or at least keep their writing private.
Oh yea. Do you think fanfiction is less creative than writing original fiction?
Well, if you do, I think the appeal of writing fanfiction is seeing the character and the world, wondering how they would react if ‘this’ happened, and exploring it. Or in crossovers, if these two worlds merged, what would happen? Or in slash, if these two characters were gay, how would their personalities work so that they actually fell in love with each other? What problems would they face with other characters if they were together?
Whether or not that’s illegal I suppose is up to the original author.
April 14th, 2005 at 9:57 am
In my book, you are taking someone else’s creative product, co-opting it and then doing whatever you want with it despite the fact you do not have the author’s permission to do so.
Ah, but we *do* have the author’s permission to do so in the Harry Potter fandom.
JKR’s literary agent: “JK Rowling’s reaction is that she is very flattered by the fact there is such great interest in her Harry Potter series and that people take the time to write their own stories.
Her concern would be to make sure that it remains a non-commercial activity to ensure fans are not exploited and it is not being published in the strict sense of traditional print publishing.”
JKR in Comic Relief Chat, March 2001
Carrie: How do you feel about thousands of fans writing fanfiction about your books, and having them posted on the Internet?
It’s wonderful … I love writing more than almost anything in the world so the idea that Harry has inspired other people to write makes me very happy.
-
I’ve been very grateful that JKR has let me play in her playground. Fanfiction is important in a way that very few people realize for writing in that it actually gives aspiring writers a chance to practice their writing with a built-in audience. I thought I wouldn’t write fanfic when I first discovered the HP fandom. It seemed a really childish thing. But my writing was going nowhere, and no one except a few unhelpful friends to critique it. So just before I turned nineteen I succumbed and started a novel-length fic. Lots of work writing that. First novel I’d ever finished. By the time I was finished, I’d honed my writing to an extent I never thought imaginable, made similarly literay-minded friends, and now am working away on an original novel with a built-in support/critique group which came as a result of writing somewhat popular fanfic. I think this is often a natural progression, for those fanficcers who are serious about their writing. I know plenty of people who served their apprenticeship, so to speak, writing fanfic, and then use the skills learned there as the basis to become published writers.
When, as JKR has, the author is encouraging of it, what’s wrong with that?
April 15th, 2005 at 6:05 am
Oh dear here I go again getting myself involved when I really don’t give a damn so here goes.
I write slash
I do not write porn slash
{mostly because whenever I do it looks like a romance novel}
I also read slash a lot of slash generally of the porn variety. I have never written or read any fanfiction based on Anne Rice’s novels because she has stated that she does not like fanfiction. I can honestly say that fanfiction keeps me involved in shows books and movies that I would generally have lost interest in {I have fandom A.D.D} I also buy a shitload of action figures videos dvds artbooks t-shirts bumper stickers etc pertaining to these shows books and movies. I have never stated that I would rather read fanfiction than watch or read the real thing. I love the real thing but I know in real life I will neverget to see or read about harry and ron getting it on unless those books make a huge 180 and I really want to see {adult ron and harry by the way} them get it on{ditto on harry/draco and harry/neville} if reading fanfiction is what keeps me going between movies and books why should you guys diss me and my kind. I can understand that you don’t like it well then don’t read it. If you get published and I read your stuff {which since I am a compulsive reader I probably will come across it? I won’t ever contemplate writing or reading fanfiction based on your stuff but because of my lack of attention span I may lose interest is all i’m saying.
April 27th, 2005 at 7:43 am
The very concept of “intellectual property” is highly unethical, not to mention sickening. Unfortunately, in the land of the almighty dollar, a complex legal and economic system depends on enforcement of this horrid concept.
April 27th, 2005 at 9:30 am
Vanya - It sounds as if you’re saying that people who create characters and a story shouldn’t have any right to protect their vision or say how their creative property is used. You don’t really think that, do you? The argument, or statement, is ridiculous. Of course people have a right to limit the use of their creative product. It’s their creative product. There is nothing complex, legal or money-grubbing about it. It’s a pretty common sense idea and applies to inventions both physical and creative. If your argument really is that you know this work is protected and not yours to use but don’t care, then say that. That doesn’t make sense either but at least it’s honest.