Does Mel Gibson Know About This?
I’m not an Anne Rice reader. I saw INTERVIEW WITH A VAMPIRE under protest. It was 1994 and the cast including Christian Slater, Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise was supposed to be a compelling draw for an unmarried woman in her 20s. It wasn’t. Apparently the vampire craze didn’t thrill me then either. Again, I like my men, oh, alive. I’ve tried to pick up Rice’s books since but never quite get there.
But, things have changed in Rice-land. The rest of you may know this. I didn’t. I barely care now. See, Rice has a book coming out in November ‘05. It’s called CHRIST THE LORD. Doesn’t sound like a vampire novel, does it? Well, according to Entertainment Weekly, the magazine in the know or almost know, Rice’s book is about, obviously, Jesus Christ - the non-vampire version, in case you’re wondering - and is partly based on "the most respected New Testament scholarship." Okay, to be honest, I don’t know what that even means. But, again, this is interesting, you know, in a petri dish kind of way.
She is including a note to her readers with the book. The note says, in part: For over ten years I’ve wanted to do this book - Jesus in his own words…. The ultimate questions, the ones distilled from a thousand others, were so obvious as to be frightening. What did it feel like to be Jesus? What did it feel like to be God and Man as a child…"
Ehhh? Is that clear out there to anyone else? I’m thinking that means a first person account by Jesus. If so, that’s pretty gutsy. The opportunities to get your ass kicked by, well, everyone from the religious right to fellow writers who think this is a ridiculous project seem pretty high.
Since I’m not a Rice follower I admit to having very little insight into her writing. I’ve picked up some chit chat about her leaving New Orleans. Why we are supposed to care about that, I still don’t know. There was also a fracas awhile back about a response she wrote to a nasty review. There was much "was it really her" and "has she lost her mind" discussion. Since I didn’t care, I just read and chuckled. But this? Anne Rice’s version of Christ? Now, this is interesting. Not enough for me to buy it, mind you, but still interesting.
May 11th, 2005 at 11:03 am
Hi, Helenkay, I’m posting this message here and down below in the hopes that you’ll see it.
I thought I should pop over here and respond to your post about a message board entry that appeared on my web site at http://www.pamelabritton.com.
First off, I have to admit that I’m confused. You seem to think that my post was directed at you when, in fact, it was not. You said:
>>My topic of yesterday regarding my current disconnect with Red Sage and the Secrets anthologies ended up as a link in part of a larger discussion on a message board about unprofessional behavior by writers on blogs.< <
I’m confused about what message board you’re talking about and would appreciate your telling me (either behind the scenes or here) who it was. It seems by this entry that it’s a SECRET’s author:
>>Okay, I thought this was clear but, for the record, I wasn’t being disrespectful to the author. I don’t know her. I don’t say I dislike her as a human being. I simply didn’t get this novella.>>>
And yet later you say this:
< < In this conversation, someone brings up the point that it's okay to praise a book so why isn't it okay to say you don't like one. >>
And so it seems clear that you’ve were, indeed, on my message board (and I am most definitely NOT a SECRETS author) because this very subject came up on a later message called IN A PERFECT WORLD, and it was *me*, yes the person who threatened to “blackball” authors who said it. And so in light of the evidence that you were on my site, this comment makes no sense:
< <(This entry mentioned me but, honestly, does not say I am the problem - I am merely an example, I think): Not all writers are savvy enough to realize that bashing ANYONE can come back to bite them in the ass, especially if they're not NYT bestselling writers.>>
It did? Where?
But since you raised this question:
<>
In my world, yes, because these were authors who CROSSED THE LINE and my hope is that it will stop these people from trying to hurt others. Let’s be clear: OTHERS, too. Amazon-gate wasn’t just an isolated incident, it was a calculated and malicious attack on me and other and I want it to stop—so I tried (albeit) in my own way to warn this person…WARN this person that it better stop because people had started to take down names. I didn’t say, “That’s it. You’re done you evil, vile woman.”
As much as you and others might like for me to don a flower garland and start singing Kumbaya, My Love, you and I both know that isn’t realistic. And so I have to ask myself what is truly at issue here? Is it that I stood up for myself and said I wasn’t going to tolerate it any more? Or that I had the audacity to state my feelings publicly? And yet everyone’s talking about how they should be free to speak their mind. But shouldn’t *I* be free to do the same? Shouldn’t I be free to use my message board forum to warn authors who’ve crossed the line (and, again, let’s be clear THOSE AUTHORS WHO’VE CROSSED THE LINE) that their behavior is unacceptable and I and others have taken notice? I suppose the answer is maybe, maybe not—but I’ll bet you one thing—I’ll bet you the vicious attacks and bashing will stop.
Whew. I feel better now. Actually, I posted a rant on my site yesterday because I was truly sickened by some of the stuff being said. But I’m over it now, have calmed down and thought I should respond to your post publicly. There’ve been a few people viewing the message in recent weeks (though it hasn’t been viewed forty times), and so I assume people have “outed” me behind the scenes. Thus I felt it might be best to respond publicly to you, and (I hope) politely to those who’ve referred to the message either in part or in it’s entirety.
Thanks for letting me sound off.
Pamela
May 11th, 2005 at 11:41 am
Pamela -
You are free to rant here or on any other entry. This likely is much more interesting than Anne Rice anyway.
Let me first explain exactly what happened. As part of the typepad blog program I have a referrer log. This shows me how people get to the site. I’m sure this is standard in any blog program. One day I wrote the Red Sage entry - which had nothing at all to do with you. That night I started getting referrals from your message board. Many referrals. I clicked on the link that led back to your site. That was the first time I’d ever been there. Not to be disrespectful, but I wasn’t familiar with your writing or your name until that point (I only say this to emphasize that the Red Sage entry didn’t have anything to do with you).
I read the message board posts/comments on the issue of speaking negatively about other authors and the idea of blackballing authors. I did not check the date - that was my oversight. I merely saw my name and the subject of the post. I did not think you were writing about me. Again, I thought you were writing about a general principle and that someone who posted a comment referenced my blog post as an example. That’s it. Nothing sinister. A simple case of following my referrer log back to your site.
You will notice if you read my previous entry on this issue that I did not link to you. I did not refer to you. I sent my cp the link when it started showing up on my log because I thought the whole thing was strange and I trust her judgment. I told exactly 2 other people by private email what message board I was referring to. They asked and I told them because I figured you wouldn’t have a public board unless you expected people to stop by. I didn’t link to you or your name (or the names of those commenting) because I didn’t view this as a “you versus me” fight. You are entitled to your opinion which, again, I did not think was about me directly since we don’t know each other. I did disagree - very strongly - with your blackballing sentiments and the suggestion that this was an okay practice. That is what I was trying to point out on my site. That was the purpose of the entry. The goal was not to offend you or the other individual I quoted - although it is now clear she was very much offended. I really couldn’t understand how I could offend anyone when I didn’t actually name your site, but I guess it happened.
Can you stand up for yourself? Sure. Should you? Absolutely. It’s your message board so you should say whatever you want. But, be prepared to have people disagree. Blackballing is my issue. Now, I understand that you are saying here you were trying to warn people. Honestly, I did not read your comment on your message board to say that. I thought (and still think) you were promoting the idea of blackballing other authors who you perceive have done you wrong. Maybe you are saying that’s okay. You can hold that view. I am happy to have a rational and professional discussion about that. So you know, my view is that blackballing is bad practice. That’s it’s unprofessional and not good for the genre. It strikes me as a junior high cafeteria fight between the bully girl in the class and the dweeb.
Again, that’s my view. This is my blog. You can hold another view. You “outed” yourself. Cece “outed” herself in my comment section. I’m all for lively and honest debate. I think if you read some of my entries you’ll see that. If you want to go back and forth on that issue - I’m all for it.
May 11th, 2005 at 12:54 pm
I think anne is off her meds again.
May 11th, 2005 at 1:42 pm
Sybil - I’m not convinced there are enough meds out there to help Anne. She can write whatever she wants, sure, but the natural progression from vampire novels to CHRIST THE LORD escapes me. I guess we’ll have to see if it works. By that, I mean other people will have to see and tell me since I don’t plan on buying it.
May 11th, 2005 at 4:27 pm
The last couple of books I’ve read by her (MEMNOCH THE DEVIL, PANDORA and a few others) have used the history of Christianity pretty heavily throughout — and the last book I skimmed had Lestat seeking sainthood and having an audience with the Pope. There’s always been a thread of this in her work, so I can see the jump from vampires to Jesus pretty easily.
Whether she’s off her rocker is another question entirely
But I do have to admire her balls and dedication, and her publisher knows that they are going to score the big bucks on this one.
May 11th, 2005 at 4:35 pm
Meljean - Clearly I do not follow Rice’s work. That’s all news to me. Lestat gets an audience with the Pope -isn’t Lestat a vampire? Maybe I missed too much to catch up. I just couldn’t imagine going from INTERVIEW WITH A VAMPIRE and the subject matter in that to a first person account of Christ. Seems like a long ride but I’ll take your word for it.
May 11th, 2005 at 10:41 pm
Hi, Helenkay– Me again;)
>>> I’m all for lively and honest debate. I think if you read some of my entries you’ll see that. If you want to go back and forth on that issue - I’m all for it.< <<
So am I, which is why I'm glad you responded. I am anything but shy and so, yes, I feel there needs to be a bit more discussion about this, especially since I still fail to understand a few things.
You said:
>>>That night I started getting referrals from your message board. Many referrals. I clicked on the link that led back to your site. That was the first time I’d ever been there. Not to be disrespectful, but I wasn’t familiar with your writing or your name until that point.< <<
Hey, I'd be shocked if you knew who I was, too, LOL. But what troubles me is your continued comments that you received referrals from my site. That is, quite frankly, impossible. 1) I'm not linked to your site. 2) You're not linked to my site. These are two components that must be in place in order for your blog stats software to register traffic from my message board. In other words, computers need a paper trail, and in this case, there isn’t one. But even supposing your “forty referrals” was true, on the day in question—the day of your Red Sage post— mymessage had exactly two page views. Two.
>>>I read the message board posts/comments on the issue of speaking negatively about other authors and the idea of blackballing authors. I did not check the date - that was my oversight. I merely saw my name and the subject of the post.< <<<
Again, where did you see your name? My message board has no editing feature. Your name couldn't have mysteriously disappeared. You're not mentioned on my site. Never were. The post wasn't about you, the post was in reference to several incidents that happened over the past few months, incidents mentioned on my message board over the past few months, that showed a deplorable lack of professionalism from my fellow writers.
>>>I did not think you were writing about me.< <<
But you said you saw your name, and so why WOULDN'T you think I was talking about you? This is where I get very, very confused.
>>>A simple case of following my referrer log back to your site.< <<
Hey, I'll show you my web stats if you'll show me yours. (Seriously) LOL, I can show you I got two hits on the message in question. I'd be really curious to see your web stats that show my site referring people to your blog. Maybe then we could get to the bottom of this.
>>>You will notice if you read my previous entry on this issue that I did not link to you. I did not refer to you. I sent my cp the link when it started showing up on my log because I thought the whole thing was strange and I trust her judgment. I told exactly 2 other people by private email what message board I was referring to.< <<
And they told two people, who told two people, who told two people, LOL. Sort of like that hair commercial. Doop. I'm showing my age, aren't I?
>>>They asked and I told them because I figured you wouldn’t have a public board unless you expected people to stop by. I didn’t link to you or your name (or the names of those commenting) because I didn’t view this as a “you versus me” fight.< <<
And I would bet that anybody who actually took the time to read the messages in question didn't view it that way, either. But I appreciate you not mentioning me by name. That was nice of you, but I don't think it was hard for people to figure out who said it.
>>>>I did disagree - very strongly - with your blackballing sentiments and the suggestion that this was an okay practice. That is what I was trying to point out on my site.< <<
And that's okay. Look, I just spent the day outside writing for a few hours. I had snow-capped mountains to gaze at and the sound of eagles feathers ruffling as they flew overhead. This really hasn't rocked my world. I just want people to know you were never mentioned on my site (as you claim), nor could my message board have referred people to you site. That’d be like getting a telephone call from Elvis. It’s just not possible.
>>>But, be prepared to have people disagree.< <<
As my original message stated, I fully, and I do mean FULLY expected the blogging to hit the fan. It just took a bit longer than expected. Hey, I wouldn't have said it if I didn't want it "out there".
>>> Blackballing is my issue. Now, I understand that you are saying here you were trying to warn people. Honestly, I did not read your comment on your message board to say that.< <<
And I can understand how you would think that. Really. And that's okay because it means the people in question read it that way, too. Although, to be perfectly honest, I didn't post the original message with any thought in mind other than to warn people. Scout's honor.
>>> I thought (and still think) you were promoting the idea of blackballing other authors who you perceive have done you wrong. < <<
Promoting? Nah. Again, warning people. That's why I've left the message in place. If I can get one person, just one, to think twice before doing something spiteful to another author, then I’ve accomplished my goal.
>>>Maybe you are saying that’s okay. You can hold that view. I am happy to have a rational and professional discussion about that. So you know, my view is that blackballing is bad practice. That’s it’s unprofessional and not good for the genre. It strikes me as a junior high cafeteria fight between the bully girl in the class and the dweeb.< <<
Well but see, that's just it. It is junior high-ish. Totally. But sometimes you’ve got to fight fire with fire. The people in question are acting like immature school girls. And just as I would do if I was being bullied by someone in school, I’m threatening to go to the principal. Would I actually do it? Hmm. That’s another good question. I don’t know, and I can hardly tell you I wouldn’t do it because that would completely negate the point of my original post. But let me tell you a little story, my hope being that when you hear it you’ll have a clearer idea of what I meant when I used the term “shooting themselves in the foot”.
Lo these many moons ago (like eleven years ago because this was before I was sold), I got into a huge on-line argument with a gal who shall, of course, remain nameless. (And, obviously, I have a history of speaking my mind). This woman was nasty, just nasty in a way that still makes my stomach turn when I think about it (I hate on-line bullies!). But you know, I totally forgot about her—until recently. Her first book is out, and I’ve gotta say, when I saw her name my immediate reaction was, “Her!!” And so I ask you, if one of my many editors (I’ve had three this year alone since I’m writing for three publishers) was to say to me, “Hey, we want to put you in an anthology with XYZ author,” and that XYZ author was HER would I say, a) “Oh sure. No problem. b) say, “Actually, I’ve got someone else in mind.” Or c) not react at all. I’m being honest when I tell you I’d probably suggest someone else—and it would be a suggestion because, ultimately, it’s the editor’s choice (well, sometimes). Why would I still hold a grudge after all these years? Well, because nobody needs a loose cannon associated with their name. That lady was a loose cannon. Sure, she might have changed, but I wouldn’t want to risk it. Is it wrong of me to not want to be guilty by association if this XYZ author still flies off the handle? I don’t know. But I would sure want to err on the side of prudence.
I realize you think I should have remained quiet on the issue. But I’m pretty certain that what I said was no big surprise to people who’ve been in the industry for any length of time. I’ve had a lot of telephone conversations with fellow writers (in the past!) about how someone’s bad behavior was going to come back to haunt them. We all know it happens. It might really make you angry that it does happen, but that the way it is.
Anyway, thanks for hearing me out. No hard feelings and all that.
Best,
Pamela<–who’s clicking the post button and hoping all the formatting works this time!
May 11th, 2005 at 10:46 pm
Hooray!! It worked!!
May 12th, 2005 at 1:42 am
Ahh-so! (She says)
Alison was kind enough to at last, at last, clarify where you saw your name. (Thank you, Alison!) But it still doesn’t explain everything, and at this point, I’m tired of trying to connect the dots. I think we can both agree to disagree about this, both claim to have misunderstood some things we read on each other’s sites, and both go back to doing what we should be doing: writing.
Ta,
Pam
May 12th, 2005 at 8:00 am
Pamela - Since you started us down this road then for reasons that are not clear decided to challenge my honesty in public on Alison’s blog, let me go ahead and finish this. My advice to you? If you are really so angry about what you perceive as unprofessional behavior, if you really are complaining about people being mean and untruthful about you, you may want to be very careful about going onto websites and calling other people names. You’ll find I can tolerate a lot. But, calling me a liar? Yeah, that’s the one step too far. You want people not to say nasty things about you then don’t do this kind of crap.
As Alison has pointed out - in a much nicer manner than I ever would have - I was mentioned in the comment to your post and the link to my blog was there. In fact, if you go back to my original post, I think you’ll see I quoted your post on your message board and specifically said you made the comment before anyone mentioned me. Then there was a comment. That comment mentioned me and that is where the link to my site was located. I can’t tell you why, on that day, a month after you posted, everyone started linking to me. I can only tell you how many hits I got. If I only got one or two, I never would have followed the link back to your message board. Frankly, I think I’ve explained this more times than I could ever imagine would be necessary.
As for the side comments like “you said you only told 2 people and now you’re saying 3″ - read my comment above. I say I sent the link to my cp and then told 2 people via email. That’s 3. Do you really want to do a line-by-line thing? I know your latest post here has a lot of LOL and those kind of things but your underlying theme is that I have, for no apparent reason, lied. I haven’t and I think you know that. Again, I don’t know you and don’t have personal feelings about you either way.
You want to have a discussion about the blackballing comment and can do it without the innuendos, that’s fine. But if the goal is to call my honesty into question, do it on your own board and leave me out of it. I outgrew those childish games more than 20 years ago.
My only other point would be to remind you, once again, that I never mentioned you on my site. I used a comment and did not attribute it to you. I didn’t go around to other boards calling you names. I haven’t called you a liar. I have explained - more times than I can count by now - why I wrote the entry and how I got to your site. I didn’t make this a personal thing. When you’re thinking about professional v. unprofessional behavior, you might want to remember all that.
May 12th, 2005 at 10:42 am
Mornin’ Helen–
I think you must have seen that I posted an apology on Alison’s Blog for inferring you were lying. But, heck–and I know this may be hard for you to do–look at it from my standpoint. I asked you repeatedly to tell me where you saw your name. That’s all you had to do: Give me the name of the post, the date and the link–you didn’t. Subsequently not only was *I* confused, but other people were, too, and so what else were we all supposed to think? That’s the nuts and bolts of it, Helen. You should have just answered my question at which point I (and others) would have gone, “Aha!” and a big sticking point would have been resolved.
And might I just point out that by saying this:
There absolutely was a link back to my site that evening but I cannot comment on whether it is still there.
That you were implying I’d removed the link, an implication that makes me look less than honest. Now, I have to ask myself, why would you say such a thing? Why didn’t you just say, “Look, you blind old bat, it’s here.”
I will, once again, apologize for inferring you were lying, but I still scratch my head over all this because, frankly, some of it still doesn’t make sense (in my mind), but whatever. As I mentioned above, I think we can both agree to disagree. Frankly, people are going to leap to their own conclusions. They’re going to sort through all the posts and nod their head in agreement with me–or you. And it’s no skin off my back if I end up looking like Cruella DeVille.
And while you might think it’s okay to quote other people’s words (as long as that person’s name isn’t mentioned) on your Blog, I’ve got to tell you (even though it’s probably going to make your bloodpressure boil…again), that there is no such thing as anonymity on the Internet. People can Google, Yahoo and Power Search for phrases and BLAM there it is–Pamela Britton said those words.
This is on the bottom of my message board, too: Copyright © Pamela Britton, and before you get your pantyhose in a twist, I mention the copyright issue because if you had said, “Hmm, better make sure It’s okay with Pamela to copy these posts,” and at which point I would have said, “Go ahead and copy them, as long as I can respond,” none–and I do mean NONE–of this would have happened. But you didn’t contact me and thus this got blown way, way, waaaay out of porportion.
And here’s my last point–I really WAS and yesterday. You might not believe that, clearly you won’t believe me, but it’s true. You don’t want to bury the hatchet, fine–it’s over, done with, finito. I won’t be coming back here because I have a book due next week and I’m a little under the gun.
Pam
May 12th, 2005 at 10:54 am
One last thing:
You said: If you are really so angry about what you perceive as unprofessional behavior, if you really are complaining about people being mean and untruthful about you, you may want to be very careful about going onto websites and calling other people names.
I never called you a name, Helen. Never accused you of being an out-and-out liar. And while you may think it was unprofessional of me to come here (and on other blogs) and speak my piece, I will remind you of what I said earlier–I’ve started to fight fire with fire. I never used to stoop this low, but now I do. Frankly, I’m tired of people saying stuff about me and so if this happens again (which you’re implying it will) I will be quick to stand up for myself. Again.
Thanks again for allowing me a forum in which to speak out and defend myself. And, no, I don’t mean that in a snarky, snide or rude way. I truly do thank you.
Pam
May 12th, 2005 at 11:07 am
Pamela - I think we’re officially done with this conversation. You can continue to post here if you want. You can also go back to your own message board and say whatever you want, including calling me Helen, which seems to be something you now want do even though you called me by my actual name previously. My only request would be to leave Alison’s board alone since this isn’t her issue. You have a fight with me, please take it out with me.
Anyone who wants to read the conversation trail can start with my original post and the comments there, then go over to your message board then follow along here starting again yesterday and on Alison’s board last evening. I will let everyone draw their own conclusions about what happened and what I’ve said.
May 12th, 2005 at 11:54 am
This is all so interesting: what was originally a post about author-behaving-badly has turned into a live demonstration of it. The point has been beautifully made, don’t you agree?
May 12th, 2005 at 4:44 pm
I’m not sure I should say anything else without talking to a lawyer…..and, uh, for the record, that’s a joke.
But, Wendy? Thank you for cutting through the bullshit, as usual.
May 12th, 2005 at 6:02 pm
“I think you must have seen that I posted an apology on Alison’s Blog for inferring you were lying.”
“I will, once again, apologize for inferring you
were lying.”
Not to cut with too fine a scalpel, but in this
context, isn’t the correct word implying, not
inferring? We’ve already covered the Helen vs.
HelenKay distinction, so maybe it’s time to dig a
little deeper.
May 12th, 2005 at 6:41 pm
Props to you Pamela for standing up for yourself. Helen, you just don’t make sense. Sounds like the green eyed monster syndrome to me. Get a Life.
Tammy
May 12th, 2005 at 7:06 pm
All those italics were driving me batty. Here’s to hoping what I did fixed ‘em.
May 12th, 2005 at 7:09 pm
Ah, crap, my attempt to fix the italics thing didn’t work. Bah.
Also, what Wendy said.
May 12th, 2005 at 8:33 pm
Miss Ironside? Your speculation and personal attacks are uncalled for. This is HelenKay’s space, don’t put your feet up on her coffee table.